I understand that Resolution Advisories are no longer issued, what about a simple Traffic Advisory alarm signaling to the pilots to look around -- i.e., "Traffic, Traffic!"
No expert here, but it is my understanding that when a plane is so close to the ground the alarm would be meaningless, as it would be continuously going off due to signals bouncing off the ground objects.
TCAS isn't the issue unless pilots are being trained to place too much emphasis on technology. Geez, just can't wait for Ai in the cockpit, right lads? Weather wasn't a factor either. ATC can only do so much but they're not in the cockpit at the controls. No, failure of pilot situational awareness is the cause, and that's a factor of training (or the lack thereof) and experience. As a pilot I was taught the Pilot's trinity: Aviate, navigate and communicate. Flying your aircraft and keeping it away from other aircraft is job one, especially in that busy flight corridor. If you can't do it wearing NVG's then stay back at the flight shack.
All this talk about TCAS and ADS-B are red herrings. The helo pilot is **ON THE ATC FEED** claiming he has the Bombardier in sight and requesting visual separation. Why he then, after that, collided with an aircraft on short final -- which unambiguously has right of way -- is the *one* question NTSB needs to get to the bottom of.
The FAA Controller should have issued a mandatory heading correction to the helicopter to ensure the aircraft would turn left and fly behind the civilian airplane. They would not leave this to the pilot. They are responsible for positive separation in that very busy Class B airspace.
I would guess the chopper pilot never had the jet in sight. We all do that sometimes--when someone says something we reply oh yes but we don't actually know what he is talking about.
Oh yes, I see the mess the dog made and will clean it up. Oh yes, I see the passenger jet liner crossing my path in front of me and will avoid it. Not really the same thing.
All mid-air collisions have one thing in common: pilots did not see each other. You sound clueless about how fast planes go and how hard it is for one to see another plane on collision course.
Blancoliro covers this on his YT channel. He is a pilot with a major American airline . Highly recommended. He goes over the ATC traffic of this accident and explains points.
[updated] The Black Hawk had the ability and the maneuverability to avoid the collision. Either the crew members (allegedly 3, all "non-officers") were incapacitated, or they were otherwise not in command of the helo. There is no excuse - this was an avoidable collision, beyond the AA flight crew's control.
Normal human instinct alone would have caused the helo crew to take evasive action, if they were able to. This leads to the conclusion that they were unable to alter the course, trajectory, altitude and speed for the helo.
Were they aboard? Were they conscious?
>> As has been kindly pointed out to me by I am Lisa, in answer to a question I raised earlier - yes, Black Hawks can be flown remotely and autonomously.<<
You are reading too much into this. A plain case of human error, carelessness: the chopper pilot probly never had the jet in sight but nonetheless responded to tower affirmatively. We all do that sometimes, like when your wife talks to you.
Unless you have evidence to prove that 3 crew members were conscious, aware, attentive and yet missed the jet when it was in clear sight ahead of them, on a registered and known flight path, showing up on internal radar and lit up like a tree as the jet traveled from the helo's port to starboard, I think we should keep our powder dry.
Did you not hear the ATC tape? They were talking seconds before impact. Oh, and the final approach is not "registered"--it was actually changed by ATC once that evening.
Agreed, but they lowered the standards for employment to insure that there would be more diversity, regardless of true skills and qualifications. They eliminated the very difficult to pass skills test for controllers a few years back. The military also cut corners because of a decline in new recruits. Air safety is not a game!
Anyone who crosses the 14th Street Bridge or travels along I-295 is familiar with the gravy train of commercial airliners proceeding the Potomac in final approach, alternating landing and takeoffs at Reagan National (DCA). Amateur pilots are familiar with the glide slope path in which you have to cant right if following the river. Regardless of transponders, this is like a passenger standing on the track and not on the platform at Metro Center waiting to catch the train. Criminal negligence.
Another good question John. That’s actually the first thing I thought about. The next thing was altitude. We know the airliner was at the proper altitude and location. It was on an ILS approach and that is unassailable. The helicopter, on the other hand, should never have been at that same altitude in that location. I can’t believe, as another commenter stated, that the DC area is full of structured low level helicopter routes and this must surely have been one of them. Such a route would be begging for disaster, especially if military aircraft are not equipped with TCAS.
Looking at the track of the CRJ, and from my past experience, the initial approach was an ILS to Runway 1, but departure traffic on 1 drove the controller to ask the CRJ if they could switch to a visual approach to Runway 33. This put the CRJ offset to the East, so it could make a left turn and line up on 33. The helicopter would have been out of sight under the belly of the aircraft.
I also recommend watching Juan Brown/Blancolirio for his analysis.
A perfect example of how important it is to regard safety at the highest priority when it comes to budget cuts and “unfunding”. This tragedy could have been avoided. We will have to wait to find out what went wrong and how the system failed. Thankful for Trump and those he has appointed; I feel more confident that they will get to the bottom of this and will truthfully report on this tragic air collision. I have also heard that there are not enough traffic controllers nationwide. I can’t remember the numbers or quote the source, but it is significantly lower than it should be and a cause for grave concern. Prayers for all the families affected by this tragedy. 🙏🏼💔
Also ADSB displays all aircraft in the vicinity, both aircraft would be required to have ADSB. The helicopter would have had to see the civilian flight on their ADSB display.
The other question to ask is whether there was an FAA DEI hire controlling the airspace. The controller should have issued a MANDATORY heading correction to the helicopter to ensure it would turn to the left and fly behind the civilian flight. It appears that corrective action may not have been taken.
I see no reports which indicate the helo crew had turned off their transponder. There's no reason for them to do that and again, they were required to have it on in the Class B airspace they and the civilian airplane were operating in. FAA would not even let them operate in the airspace without their transponder being on and squacking an FAA assigned code. I know this, I am a pilot.
FAA Tower saw the Helo but did not immediately issue a new course (i.e., PAT25 immediately left turn to heading 010) to ensure the helo would end turning left and behind the civilian. The helo would have to comply or be in a world of doodoo. But the FAA didn't send a mandatory course change and with that civilian airplane making the right turn which put it on a collision course. It is uncertain if either or both of them were on IFR flight plans, apparently the helo was VFR, and had been authorized into the Class B by the FAA Controllers. It is uncertain but it appears the FAA failed to maintain separation. Its also possible the civilian a/c had cancelled IFR on the approach because they had the runway in sight and in that case, the FAA didn't have to mandatorily separate them. I think there is culpability for both the FAA and the helo pilots. If the helo pilots were VFR they are required to see and avoid but in that airspace at night, with lights on all over the place and in the air - good luck! I think it is clear the helo never gained visual contact of the civilian and flew right into it. The FAA did point out the CJ to the helo, but that wasn't enough, not in this situation, they should have assigned it a new course and this would not have happened. Tragic loss of life. Im betting a DEI hire in an understaffed control tower.
On early Thursday morning, President Donald Trump wrote on Truth Social:
"The airplane was on a perfect and routine line of approach to the airport. The helicopter was going straight at the airplane for an extended period of time. It is a CLEAR NIGHT, the lights on the plane were blazing, why didn't the helicopter go up or down, or turn. Why didn't the control tower tell the helicopter what to do instead of asking if they saw the plane. This is a bad situation that looks like it should have been prevented. NOT GOOD!!!"
This is very suspicious. I would definitely want the passenger list. Also would be interested what religious group the novice belonged too. I’m sure you can guess what I mean.
WTF were the air traffic controllers doing, they ought to have been monitoring both aircraft even more so at night. The controller should have instructed the pilot of the helo to stop and wait before crossing the glide path to the airport as there was a plane on approach.
It didn't fail. TCAS RA's are disabled below '1000. You can contact me if you want more info.
I understand that Resolution Advisories are no longer issued, what about a simple Traffic Advisory alarm signaling to the pilots to look around -- i.e., "Traffic, Traffic!"
No expert here, but it is my understanding that when a plane is so close to the ground the alarm would be meaningless, as it would be continuously going off due to signals bouncing off the ground objects.
I used to think they weren't poisoning our food to make us sick..."𝐛𝐮𝐭" this changed everything.... https://t.co/JDSIZEcj4C
Agree. TCAS RA is disabled to prevent a descend command avoidance close to ground
TCAS isn't the issue unless pilots are being trained to place too much emphasis on technology. Geez, just can't wait for Ai in the cockpit, right lads? Weather wasn't a factor either. ATC can only do so much but they're not in the cockpit at the controls. No, failure of pilot situational awareness is the cause, and that's a factor of training (or the lack thereof) and experience. As a pilot I was taught the Pilot's trinity: Aviate, navigate and communicate. Flying your aircraft and keeping it away from other aircraft is job one, especially in that busy flight corridor. If you can't do it wearing NVG's then stay back at the flight shack.
Like where were the 3 heads in the cockpit of the helicopter? Looking down at the FMS and screen discussing things?
It is around 600 feet that the system does not work.
All this talk about TCAS and ADS-B are red herrings. The helo pilot is **ON THE ATC FEED** claiming he has the Bombardier in sight and requesting visual separation. Why he then, after that, collided with an aircraft on short final -- which unambiguously has right of way -- is the *one* question NTSB needs to get to the bottom of.
The FAA Controller should have issued a mandatory heading correction to the helicopter to ensure the aircraft would turn left and fly behind the civilian airplane. They would not leave this to the pilot. They are responsible for positive separation in that very busy Class B airspace.
Note that the Bombardier almost certainly could not see the helo. This X post has details of just how (intentionally) hard to see blackhawks are
https://x.com/Mark_McEathron/status/1884849637066260815
I would guess the chopper pilot never had the jet in sight. We all do that sometimes--when someone says something we reply oh yes but we don't actually know what he is talking about.
Oh yes, I see the mess the dog made and will clean it up. Oh yes, I see the passenger jet liner crossing my path in front of me and will avoid it. Not really the same thing.
All mid-air collisions have one thing in common: pilots did not see each other. You sound clueless about how fast planes go and how hard it is for one to see another plane on collision course.
Blancoliro covers this on his YT channel. He is a pilot with a major American airline . Highly recommended. He goes over the ATC traffic of this accident and explains points.
Thanks for the recommendation. It is the most information I’ve heard or read this morning.
New update available on his channel
[updated] The Black Hawk had the ability and the maneuverability to avoid the collision. Either the crew members (allegedly 3, all "non-officers") were incapacitated, or they were otherwise not in command of the helo. There is no excuse - this was an avoidable collision, beyond the AA flight crew's control.
Normal human instinct alone would have caused the helo crew to take evasive action, if they were able to. This leads to the conclusion that they were unable to alter the course, trajectory, altitude and speed for the helo.
Were they aboard? Were they conscious?
>> As has been kindly pointed out to me by I am Lisa, in answer to a question I raised earlier - yes, Black Hawks can be flown remotely and autonomously.<<
It wouldn't be the first time they did something like this, would it?
https://adst.org/2014/10/kal-007-a-targeted-assassination/
You are reading too much into this. A plain case of human error, carelessness: the chopper pilot probly never had the jet in sight but nonetheless responded to tower affirmatively. We all do that sometimes, like when your wife talks to you.
Unless you have evidence to prove that 3 crew members were conscious, aware, attentive and yet missed the jet when it was in clear sight ahead of them, on a registered and known flight path, showing up on internal radar and lit up like a tree as the jet traveled from the helo's port to starboard, I think we should keep our powder dry.
Did you not hear the ATC tape? They were talking seconds before impact. Oh, and the final approach is not "registered"--it was actually changed by ATC once that evening.
Yes, and that is irrelevant. The helicopter had 3 crew members aboard in clear visibility. It is a registered, recognized flight path.
Hegseth should also determine if the helicopter pilot or the controller were DEI hires!
How would that be determined? Lots of women and nonwhite folks are quite competent.
Agreed, but they lowered the standards for employment to insure that there would be more diversity, regardless of true skills and qualifications. They eliminated the very difficult to pass skills test for controllers a few years back. The military also cut corners because of a decline in new recruits. Air safety is not a game!
Who said anything about women and nonwhite folk not being competent? It looks like you are the only one who made that misogynistic, racist comment.
not lately😆
Hence, my question about to know the name of the passengers list! Because I really have doubts about this accident, supposedly caused by a novice.
There were Russian world champion figure skaters and U.S. figure skaters on board
"There were Russian world champion figure skaters and U.S. figure skaters on board."
Way too much conspiracy theory.
Hey, no need to get your knickers in a twist. It is a theory.
And we need more of the “outside the box” theories heard.
I just heard there were several Russians on the plane. Auto pilot takeover?
Anyone who crosses the 14th Street Bridge or travels along I-295 is familiar with the gravy train of commercial airliners proceeding the Potomac in final approach, alternating landing and takeoffs at Reagan National (DCA). Amateur pilots are familiar with the glide slope path in which you have to cant right if following the river. Regardless of transponders, this is like a passenger standing on the track and not on the platform at Metro Center waiting to catch the train. Criminal negligence.
Another good question John. That’s actually the first thing I thought about. The next thing was altitude. We know the airliner was at the proper altitude and location. It was on an ILS approach and that is unassailable. The helicopter, on the other hand, should never have been at that same altitude in that location. I can’t believe, as another commenter stated, that the DC area is full of structured low level helicopter routes and this must surely have been one of them. Such a route would be begging for disaster, especially if military aircraft are not equipped with TCAS.
Looking at the track of the CRJ, and from my past experience, the initial approach was an ILS to Runway 1, but departure traffic on 1 drove the controller to ask the CRJ if they could switch to a visual approach to Runway 33. This put the CRJ offset to the East, so it could make a left turn and line up on 33. The helicopter would have been out of sight under the belly of the aircraft.
I also recommend watching Juan Brown/Blancolirio for his analysis.
It has been said the collision happened at 400 ft. WHY would the helo be at 400 ft when their max is 200 through this corridor?
A perfect example of how important it is to regard safety at the highest priority when it comes to budget cuts and “unfunding”. This tragedy could have been avoided. We will have to wait to find out what went wrong and how the system failed. Thankful for Trump and those he has appointed; I feel more confident that they will get to the bottom of this and will truthfully report on this tragic air collision. I have also heard that there are not enough traffic controllers nationwide. I can’t remember the numbers or quote the source, but it is significantly lower than it should be and a cause for grave concern. Prayers for all the families affected by this tragedy. 🙏🏼💔
Any chance that the narrative will be doctored?
There's always a chance. Never trust. But, it's much less likely than before January 20, 2025.
Also ADSB displays all aircraft in the vicinity, both aircraft would be required to have ADSB. The helicopter would have had to see the civilian flight on their ADSB display.
The other question to ask is whether there was an FAA DEI hire controlling the airspace. The controller should have issued a MANDATORY heading correction to the helicopter to ensure it would turn to the left and fly behind the civilian flight. It appears that corrective action may not have been taken.
or, the helo had turned off his transponder, as suggested above. . .
There's no reason for the helo pilot to turn off his transponder, being in Class B airspace, it is required, mandatory.
my point exactly. SO, if he did, WHY,
and HOW was it allowed by 3 crew?
I see no reports which indicate the helo crew had turned off their transponder. There's no reason for them to do that and again, they were required to have it on in the Class B airspace they and the civilian airplane were operating in. FAA would not even let them operate in the airspace without their transponder being on and squacking an FAA assigned code. I know this, I am a pilot.
Yep, I get that Dan.
my point is a simple one: If it INEXPLICABLY was turned off. . . there is suddenly a different scenario. . . that is all.
FAA Tower saw the Helo but did not immediately issue a new course (i.e., PAT25 immediately left turn to heading 010) to ensure the helo would end turning left and behind the civilian. The helo would have to comply or be in a world of doodoo. But the FAA didn't send a mandatory course change and with that civilian airplane making the right turn which put it on a collision course. It is uncertain if either or both of them were on IFR flight plans, apparently the helo was VFR, and had been authorized into the Class B by the FAA Controllers. It is uncertain but it appears the FAA failed to maintain separation. Its also possible the civilian a/c had cancelled IFR on the approach because they had the runway in sight and in that case, the FAA didn't have to mandatorily separate them. I think there is culpability for both the FAA and the helo pilots. If the helo pilots were VFR they are required to see and avoid but in that airspace at night, with lights on all over the place and in the air - good luck! I think it is clear the helo never gained visual contact of the civilian and flew right into it. The FAA did point out the CJ to the helo, but that wasn't enough, not in this situation, they should have assigned it a new course and this would not have happened. Tragic loss of life. Im betting a DEI hire in an understaffed control tower.
It was a Priority Air Transport (military bigwig) flight and the transponder was off for some reason. https://x.com/flightradar24/status/1884803434274075060
Was the flight weaponized against the passenger plane?
https://www.zerohedge.com/political/small-plane-crashes-near-reagan-national-airport-after-fiery-explosion-caught-camera
On early Thursday morning, President Donald Trump wrote on Truth Social:
"The airplane was on a perfect and routine line of approach to the airport. The helicopter was going straight at the airplane for an extended period of time. It is a CLEAR NIGHT, the lights on the plane were blazing, why didn't the helicopter go up or down, or turn. Why didn't the control tower tell the helicopter what to do instead of asking if they saw the plane. This is a bad situation that looks like it should have been prevented. NOT GOOD!!!"
This is very suspicious. I would definitely want the passenger list. Also would be interested what religious group the novice belonged too. I’m sure you can guess what I mean.
uuuuh, of middle eastern origin, perhaps?
Which group?
I cannot confirm the report I heard that the transponder on the Blackhawk was turned off?
that surely will come out in the NTSB investigation, early you would think.
Airport controller to his boss: "There was only ONE plane on the scope!"
I used to think they weren't poisoning our food to make us sick..."𝐛𝐮𝐭" this changed everything.... https://t.co/JDSIZEcj4C
WTF were the air traffic controllers doing, they ought to have been monitoring both aircraft even more so at night. The controller should have instructed the pilot of the helo to stop and wait before crossing the glide path to the airport as there was a plane on approach.